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(Jul-09-2010, 09:08 PM (UTC))Chrischa Wrote: [ -> ]
(Jul-09-2010, 11:07 AM (UTC))Farseer Wrote: [ -> ]Not sure if you (or nessie!) have come across maulkin's original questioning but he wondered who fashioned the bars to contain SWR and how they obtained the iron etc...one earlier post in this thread and another in the Mythical Creatures thread. Any ideas?

Yes; we think about these books too much. Smiling

How about the Others used their Skill to persuade a craftsman who was walking the beach to make the bars for them?

Funny how things seem to become clearer when you step back from a thread for a while! If the Others are Skilled, they would not need to use anyone else to craft the bars for them if it was, in fact, them who first needed the bars to restrain SWR. Having the Skill (as we/I have assumed), and powerful enough in the magic to produce such a convincing glamour (not to mention the magic they use with regard to the path/forest etc on the island itself), the Others could have just fashioned the bars themselves!!! Clapping Among other Skill-wrought wonders that have taken place, Verity replaced the blade of his own sword using the Skill in AA, twice, and Wintrow made his stained-glass windows, so there would be no reason why the Others couldn't do the same and fashion the iron bars through the use of the Skill?

As for the source of the iron, I am still convinced it must be Forge...possibly it was taken by Raiders for the Pale Woman when the citizens of Forge were first taken hostage etc, and it was she who gave it to the Others? Both she and the Others would benefit from the capture? I have a feeling that the timeline wouldn't be right though, as SWR was restrained for many "generations" prior to her release, and the time from the first raid on Forge to her release couldn't be considered as generations, could it? Still, the iron could nevertheless have come from Forge no matter when it was? Hmmm...

I only read so many threads so I apologise if I had already made this ^ not-very-well-thought-out comment!!!

Another comment (now going back to our Kitten-Thick and drowned kittens discussion)...I noted that in AA, Chapter Twenty-Three, "The Wedding", that Fitz referred to himself as "drowned like a puppy" when Regal threw him into the Mountain Kingdom steam pool. Not sure what that means!! Turned
Hmm I guess this is possible. I also think the timeline would be a bit problematic for the PW to have supplied iron from Forge at the time of the red ship raid. I imagine SWR had been trapped there a LOT longer than that.
I don't know that iron is in short supply necessarily - the amount needed to make iron bars could have washed up on the shore from a ship's cargo or maybe the anchor (do the items on the shore come from shipwrecks? I can't recall if where they come from is made clear. I seem to recall the waters are treacherous around the island)

I wish I had some insights on the whole Kitten-Thick and drowned kittens thing! There's something there!
Maybe that copper 'feather' (?) was from an Elderling?

(Jan-12-2011, 05:53 AM (UTC))Nuytsia Wrote: [ -> ]
(Nov-14-2010, 10:34 PM (UTC))Farseer Wrote: [ -> ]Possibly the copper feather signifies dragons? A ‘feather’, after all, is merely Kennit’s take on what the object is, especially as he would have been more interested in what the object meant for his dreams of kingship rather than speculating on its beauty?

Or an actual scale dropped by a copper dragon?
Or in some way linked to the feathers found on the beach that went into the rooster crown? (not sure how, probably only in some symbolic way which is lost on me!)

(Jan-12-2011, 12:13 PM (UTC))Farseer Wrote: [ -> ]
(Jan-12-2011, 05:53 AM (UTC))Nuytsia Wrote: [ -> ]Or an actual scale dropped by a copper dragon?

Uhhuh See?! Now this is why I just LOVE brainstorming here on thePlenty!!! Clapping
A couple of things have made me think that there may well have been a major falling out between dragons and elderlings before the cataclysm, so Forge may well have been the source of the iron, and the elderlings themselves may have imprisoned SWR.
Farseer's mention of the possible elderling city nearby Forge seems less and less of a coincedence to me!
I will post more on that in the appropriate thread......

(Jun-09-2010, 05:07 PM (UTC))maulkin Wrote: [ -> ]I raised this in the "Mythical Creatures" thread but it probably belongs here too.
Who imprisoned She Who Remembers?
If it was the Others then they must have been thriving before the dragons departed in order to be there waiting when SWR hatched. Moreover, they must have been capable of working iron and stone in order to manufacture the cage in which SWR was imprisoned. It seems more likely to me that SWR was imprisoned by humans (or at least with human help) and then adopted by the Others as their oracle. It may even be that the Others only developed sentience after they gained access to SWR's memories.

This raises the question; what kind of memories (if any) do Others inherit? Do they inherit serpent memories, elderling memories or a mixture of both? If they inherit elderling memories then perhaps they would have had the ability to manufacture a cage from scratch (although I imagine that they would have needed to trade with humans for iron and tools or perhaps salvage them from the beach).

(Jun-19-2010, 04:29 AM (UTC))Farseer Wrote: [ -> ]Will go back through the other posts soon (have to head off somewhere...darn it!!) but 'iron' jumped out at me, and made me think of the iron works at Forge. Weren't Skill pillars, memory stone and humps in the earth (which pointed to a buried Elderling city) also found in the vicinity of Forge? Hmmm!
Bah I can't find the posts where we discussed how Others are created! So bear with me if I am repeating stuff...!

I was just re-reading Liveships and it occurs to me that the Others seem very serpent like........ now didn't we find out that the most plausible theory presented in the books for the origin of the Others is that they are dragons who spent too much time in contact with humans?

It just seemed to me from the passages that describe them that they are in no way like dragons......... very very serpenty.... when I compare them to Elderlings which seem to retain most of their human characteristics (as far as we know thus far).

Hmmmm I don't know what conclusion to draw from this!! Others are humans that spent too much time with serpents????
Or, too much time tending dragon eggs???
I seem to recall it was implied that the characteristics of the Rain Wilders might have been at least partly due to their exposure to wizardwood - ie serpent/dragon cocoons? (although I think we really aren't sure if it's something in the river) (and it seems that if it were wizardwood the Bingtowners who live on Liveships would be at least as affected.....although they DO have those deformed babies..... but it's not mentioned that this only happens to those with Liveships )
Others are dragons transformed by parental contact with humans... Rather than hatched as pure serpents, they are hatched with some human physical traits...

the reason rain wilders seem to change is their long-time proximity to cocooned dragons and countless pieces of elderling magic... They literally wade in it... Even bingtowners are somewhat affected... but not to the same degree... Unborn infants and open wounds are obviously more easily affected by the changes than unharmed humans...
So many good points in this thread! Smiling

Kennit losing the leg that he trod on the globe with... now why didn't I think of that?

Just a few random thoughts/observations:

There were 12 fingernails & 12 teacups.... wasn't there 12 runes on the pillars/runes game as well? maybe 12 is an important magical number in RotE, just as 7 was in Harry Potter

The 3 performers/jesters/tumblers in the sphere made a few people (including me) think of Fool... therefore also White Prophets... and there are 3 White Prophets in the stories (Fool, Pilkrop & Pale Woman)

Maybe the reason that Etta, Fitz & Dutiful were allowed to remove items from the beach without consequences, was that they did not specifically go there looking for treasure/their destinies, rather the treasure/destinies found them...
Etta didn't even realise that the baby was in her boot until she took her boots off back on Vivacia.
Fitz treads on the first 4 feathers, then while picking the fourth up, sees the 5th one glinting in the light, almost as if it was calling to him.
Dutiful trips over the chain attached to the statuette and when asked to drop it by the Others, tries to, but the chain tangles around his fingers, as if it doesn't want to let go.

While most of the items Kennit picks up, he has been deliberately seaching for and makes a conscious decision to pick them up, his taking of the ruby earring is described as being "instinctive", so maybe that relates more to his destiny than the other items Pirate

That mention of the statue got 'thul thinking... Wouldn't it have been fun with a tailed elderling?
(Mar-31-2011, 08:24 PM (UTC))Jizdin Wrote: [ -> ]There were 12 fingernails & 12 teacups.... wasn't there 12 runes on the pillars/runes game as well? maybe 12 is an important magical number in RotE, just as 7 was in Harry Potter

Yes, love it! Yay I, too, have touched a little more on 'twelve' here if you'd like to take a look, Jidzin, though I am yet to reply to 'thul's most recent post there (sorry 'thul beings!) BUT I do have a response to add and have heaps more to ponder. It is so wonderful to have this opportunity to "ponder" together and, as a coterie, we just may work something out!! Grouphug

(Mar-31-2011, 08:24 PM (UTC))Jizdin Wrote: [ -> ]The 3 performers/jesters/tumblers in the sphere made a few people (including me) think of Fool... therefore also White Prophets... and there are 3 White Prophets in the stories (Fool, Pilkrop & Pale Woman)

Yes to this, as well! I, too, have thought of these those not sure if I had mentioned it (sorry, no time to go back over posts!)...I also have been meaning to add the "rule of three" to my talk of 'twelve', as it does appear quite a bit in the RotE books, as it often does in the fantasy genre? eg Fitz, Fool, Nighteyes, the three facets of Sa that are known to us etc?

Not sure if I mentioned this earlier either but the tumblers also make me consider the role and connection between minstrels and Elderlings, as I have mentioned in some other threads...will check on a link when I return home. The motley that the tumblers wear is most certainly Fool-like...

(Mar-31-2011, 08:24 PM (UTC))Jizdin Wrote: [ -> ]Maybe the reason that Etta, Fitz & Dutiful were allowed to remove items from the beach without consequences, was that they did not specifically go there looking for treasure/their destinies, rather the treasure/destinies found them...
Etta didn't even realise that the baby was in her boot until she took her boots off back on Vivacia.
Fitz treads on the first 4 feathers, then while picking the fourth up, sees the 5th one glinting in the light, almost as if it was calling to him.
Dutiful trips over the chain attached to the statuette and when asked to drop it by the Others, tries to, but the chain tangles around his fingers, as if it doesn't want to let go.

While most of the items Kennit picks up, he has been deliberately seaching for and makes a conscious decision to pick them up, his taking of the ruby earring is described as being "instinctive", so maybe that relates more to his destiny than the other items Pirate

True!!! One thing that comes to mind that doesn't really have anything to do with all of this, but did make me think of the Treasure Beach nonetheless, is Amber and Althea in Amber's shop when Althea chose the serpent egg from the bowl of beads. This bead foretold her future in a similar fashion to the items found on the Treasure Beach. A connection, or no?

Another thought...possibly preventing humans from taking items from the beach means that Others prevent humans from having THAT future? By placing them within the alcoves they ensure they change (or even preserve) the course of time...for themselves, or someone else? More to add at another time re the significance of RH dreaming from an Other's pov and, during the dream, punishing humans who take items from the beach and don't place them in the alcoves.

Haven't thought about it much but just a little theory of the many I think on!
I previously raised a discussion in this thread regarding the possible similarity between the loss of memories/connections for serpents and Forged Ones etc. Rather than continue that discussion here (as I have heaps more to add re Forging, I have split the related posts into a new Memories/Forging thread. Smiling
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