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Yes, I agree with Rendezvous that Patience was an important part of it, as well as my other thoughts in follow-up post #18 in this thread (midway down page) ... a part of which is here:

(Aug-25-2010, 01:28 PM (UTC))Farseer Wrote: [ -> ]Chade admitted to Fitz later that Chivalry could never do right in Shrewd's eyes once he had chosen to court Patience.

Chivalry's relationship with Patience was obviously cause for a huge (and lasting) divide between he and Shrewd, and this was confirmed for us when Fitz sought Molly's hand by asking Shrewd's permission (which was also when Shrewd got angry and mistakenly named Fitz as "Chivalry", giving us a firm hint of the angst that had gone on between the two regarding the subject).

I will have to dwell on it all some more though, and will keep it in mind as I continue through AA again. Have you finished your re-reads yet Mervi? Were you going back through all books or just those in the Farseer trilogy?

Just on that, is there any evidence to back up the possibility that the room Fitz inhabited as a youth in Buckkeep was in fact Chivalry's old room? When Brant first took him there he stated clearly that it hadn't "been used for some time" (possibly even since Chivalry had been rooming in with Patience and so would have progressed to another room?). While it was a fairly humble room while inhabited by Fitz, it could have been fit for a King-in-Waiting with the addition of rich linens and tapestries etc? Verity, Shrewd and Regal's rooms are often mentioned (I think Dutiful was later given Regal's room?) but I can't recall anything being mentioned about a room for Chivalry. Of course everything of his would later have been taken to Withywoods but if he and Chade shared a close, working relationship, there is a possibility that Chivalry used that as a room to sleep in once? Of course, they could have done without that arrangement as they could always have simply reached each other via the access door in Verity's tower room (which may have been shared with Chivalry before he abdicated?).

More to add but I can slip that into another thread to save this one from a thrashing Smiling !!
[quote='Nuytsia' pid='3197' dateline='1282390787']
Re Fallstar, I THOUGHT I recalled Chade saying something about it at some stage but I may well be wrong there.... a very vague thought....
Yes, it isn't exactly a positive name.... redchild I'm not sure he'd apply it to himself by choice, but then again maybe he DOES have a bit of a matyr streak now that I think of it .......
[/quote

Pretty sure Verity or possibly Chade said about Bastards being able to take their own name and crest. Chade could have taken this more negative name because of how he felt about himself, In the quote about loyalty doesn't he say to Shrewd to remember what he is to him. Maybe Chade regrets that he 'missed' on being king + when he was burnt I doubt he was feeling to positive about himself.
(Dec-22-2010, 10:55 PM (UTC))Ryder Wrote: [ -> ]Pretty sure Verity or possibly Chade said about Bastards being able to take their own name and crest.

Well met and welcome to thePlenty, Ryder!

When Fitz first received his new clothes from Mistress Hasty, he asked Burrich about the crest with the red, diagonal slash across it(Chapter Four of AA, 'Apprenticeship') . Burrich went on to suggest that Fitz could think of a name and a crest of his own (though Fitz got a tad grumpy about that and thought Chivalry or someone else should do it). Burrich said: "If you don't like it, you can change it. I am sure the King would grant it. A name and a crest of your own" and then he went on to say "...It's a simple enough request. Bastards are rare in the noble houses especially so in the King's own. But they aren't unheard of."

Gosh I love re-reads Clapping !

I liked that it was Verity who gave Fitz his charging buck crest and name of FitzChivalry (the new crest was given to him in Chapter Nineteen of AA, 'Journey'). That Verity registered the name in the military log on the day he was taken to Moonseye, makes me wonder if he did it with Chivalry's blessing or even after a suggestion from Chivalry (they were obviously Skilled-linked at the time?), or possibly it was just the tradition to name a bastard prince with the prefix of "Fitz", as we discussed elsewhere on thePlenty a while ago. This puts a different spin on Burrich's naming of him as "fitz" or "Fitz". Most everyone else just assumed that Burrich named him as such and then the name just took but, in fact, he had already been logged as FitzChivalry. Very interesting though that Burrich had not even seen Verity before his very first use of "Fitz". This suggests that the term Fitz was possibly applied to all 'registered' and 'acknowledged' bastards of Six Duchies princes?

A leap from that and I have to wonder if Chade's logged name at Buckkeep is actually FitzBounty? Big Grin Whatever name he was known by prior to his accident, I'm guessing it was not Chade, otherwise all would have known his true identity when he took on the role of adviser to Kettricken. Was he actually acknowledged by Bounty? I can't remember! Was he known by the public as a royal bastard, like Fitz, prior to his accident? He was often in the public eye, and very vain with it, so he must have held some sort of 'position'? His true identity and that he exists as a Farseer is NOW a secret but was it back then before his accident? While Chade was not his real name, did he have TWO names prior to that (his birth name and then a Buckkeep name) or just the one birth name? I probably know this answer, having read the book so many times, but there are so many facts that it's impossible to remain holding on to them all!

(Dec-22-2010, 10:55 PM (UTC))Ryder Wrote: [ -> ]Chade could have taken this more negative name because of how he felt about himself, In the quote about loyalty doesn't he say to Shrewd to remember what he is to him. Maybe Chade regrets that he 'missed' on being king + when he was burnt I doubt he was feeling to positive about himself.

You could be right there. No doubt Chade feels regret or a "what if?" (at least, I know I would in the same circumstance) and later on in the TM trilogy he even acknowledged that Shrewd had been worried about him as he'd always had more ambition than Fitz.

One thing I always did wonder about (sudden change of topic!) is the deference Chade gave to Fitz in the end. By right of blood, he possibly had more claim to the throne than Fitz? Of course, Fitz was of Chivalry's line, as was Dutiful (though Dutiful is known to be of Verity's line and therefore seems to have an even stonger claim after Verity had been a crowned king P !!) but if it were not for his bastard status, it would have been Chade who'd been the crowned king and not Shrewd. Just as it would have been Fitz and not Verity. In this, as both illegitimate "princes", Chade could himself have taken stewardship of the throne for Dutiful. Instead, he gave way to Fitz and even got rather emotional about finally having a true Farseer King on the throne once more. I think this highlights Chade's strong love for Fitz.

(Dec-22-2010, 12:35 PM (UTC))Farseer Wrote: [ -> ]Just on that, is there any evidence to back up the possibility that the room Fitz inhabited as a youth in Buckkeep was in fact Chivalry's old room? When Brant first took him there he stated clearly that it hadn't "been used for some time" (possibly even since Chivalry had been rooming in with Patience and so would have progressed to another room?).

Of note is the fact that Chade's work area had also been unused for quite some time, possibly for years. This links to the ajoining room also being unused for some time. The first job Fitz had as Chade's apprentice was helping him to clean up the entire work area and put it all right again. Chade was obviously saddened by the memories the unused room evoked and it was only the teaching of Fitz that seemed to have motivated him to begin working there again (though on Shrewd's orders of course). Chade told Fitz that it had taken him quite some time to agree to Shrewd's request, after Shrewd had finally worked up the courage to seek him out once more, and I wonder if this is all because of what happened with Chivalry (Shrewd had known that Chade was angry with him regarding his testing of Chivalry etc and that Chade would would most likely be unprepared to want to go through it all again with Chivalry's son)? Possibly it could have been due to some other apprentice but, for me, Chivalry ticks all boxes.

While Verity and Chade had a relationship, it was obviously not Verity who worked as closely with Chade as Chivalry, otherwise the work area of his room would have been clean and in some sort of order, not dust-covered etc from a lack of use.
My apologies for yet another back-to-back post! Just on Chivalry working closely with Chade, it mentions in Chapter Eight of AA, 'Lady Thyme' regarding Lady Thyme, "...she used to go along on a lot of Chivalry's trips...". This, to me, confirms that Chade and Chivalry worked closely on their art of diplomacy together in the roles of hand (Chade) and glove (Chivalry), as Chade had previously noted.

Fitz, looking very much like Chivalry and shown as such at Neatbay (as was noted by Verity), seemed to me to have been handed this role by Shrewd so as to fill in where Chivalry would otherwise have been - a role which he performed brilliantly in much the same way as Chivalry may have done as per my previous post regarding his actions with Lady Grace.

Prior to the trip, Fitz had asked Chade if Verity was aware of his true mission (to decide if Kelvar was innocent or guilty of treason and then mete out the King's Justice if required). To this Chade replied, "Verity is as good as his name. He could not sit at table with a man he was poisoning and conceal it." This suggests that Verity, due to his very nature, was never previously directly involved (though may have been aware sometimes) with Chade and Chivalry's style of diplomacy which was, of course, Shrewd's way of doing things. In this, Shrewd certainly had used Chivalry as he did Fitz. Verity's way is the soldier's way - straight-forward, direct and blunt. Court intrigue and diplomacy was never his way. Rather, it was Shrewd's and Verity himself verified this when he said of it, "Shrewd he is called and shrewd he is; I wonder what he expects to gain... That is his kind of kingship, and I leave it to him..."
We're still in the middle of RA and I've personally fallen behind even of that schedule so...

Farseer, I'd love to hear your take on the "broken" discussion (the end of last page) if you don't mind/when you have free time to give it some thought!
Besides what I had to say on posts #4 and #18, though there could be one or two I've missed, I have to admit to being stumped as to how to explain it Undecided , sorry Mervi.

I think Chivalry was broken in more ways than one, and all that in spite of (or even possibly some if it is actually due to) his supposedly 'perfectionist' nature. In fact, the more I think on Chivalry, the more I understand, like and respect him. In his being "broken", I tend to think of him as being mostly "defeated" in many different ways though there are other aspects of the term that could just as easily apply to him also. I can't think of a character within RotE who has appeared to be so totally defeated or broken as Chivalry, or who has appeared to fall as far. While many others seem to have dealt with some truly terrifying and violent experiences eg Serilla, Wintrow, Althea, they have been able to rise above these and have even gone on to experience greater success and fulfillment. For all of the position, expectation, finding and demanding a true love partner etc, Chivalry was unable to do that. He was repeatedly dealt with...defeated...broken. In the end, due to his murder, he was completely defeated and broken.

In saying that, if it were not for his actions, the Catalyst would never have existed and the changes required by Changer never made...in this, in my opinion, Chivalry achieved the ultimate success but, like Fitz and the actions he performs daily, such a simple deed as that will go mostly unnoticed in the whole scheme of things. In all else though he failed or was broken...at least, that is how it is perceived by Buck society, his family etc.

Still, I have been thinking about it (dare I say too much, and that is likely my problem with my mind in such a tangle over it all!), and will return here for elaboration when/if a brighter lightbulb Lightbulb appears! P
Well, you've definitely given me something to think about! I've never seen Chivalry as "broken" before, I always thought his abdication and withdrawal from the court life was more to protect Fitz and to make peace with his own father & Patience and possibly also an attempt to try to save his "perfect" image in his people's eyes than suffering the ultimate defeat. Hmm.
Not a question so much as a quick observation...it intrigues me that Thick disliked being onboard a ship, especially when I take into account that Taker, the first of the Farseers, also became sick when travelling on ocean voyages (which is the reason why he stopped raiding etc and decided to make Buckkeep his home).
Seasickness isnt exactly uncommon. I just think they both just add to the plot.
That's true, assasin. Most likely there is no connection but interesting, I thought, all the same. I guess, in a way, it could add weight to the whole 'El of the sea' and 'Eda of the land' difference? That there are certain ones who truly have an aversion to the sea, and therefore a solid attachment to the land, for reasons other than birth etc? Another, slightly different, example of this could possibly be Wintrow...a Vestrit who was initially very disinterested in a sea life though, as we know, he came to love it and acquired great knowledge and sea-faring wisdom under Kennit's tutelage.

We are given the character of Thick, who is solidly "of the land", and he becomes sick while on a boat. This is not such a stretch for us, especially as he is also portrayed initially as a social, physical and intellectual outcast...he seemingly lacks in all else so, of course, he will be the 'weak' one who succumbs to seasickness.

In the beginning we are also given this image of Taker, a tough Outislander Raider whose family were solidly "of the sea", and yet he suffers from seasickness also (not an easy position for him to be in, and most likely this 'weakness' caused hostility from others who called the God Runes their home). While we may think that the present situation has called for different individuals and groups to undertake vast changes, there are those who instigated great change many generations prior eg if Taker had not bravely turned aside from his home, sea-faring life and what was expected of him, who is to say if Changer would ever have come to exist?

Another thought...as the first Farseer, did Taker ever find out how to use the Skill pillars connecting Buck and Aslevjal for the purpose of travel (such as Thick and Fitz used), and therefore venture home to the Out Islands from time-to-time? It appears not.
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