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Full Version: Wintrow/Kennit SPOILERS ALL HOBB BOOKS INCL COD
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I did amend the spoiler tag in the thread title but, just in case, there are major spoilers below for TM...

No time to overly elaborate but here's me disagreeing just because it's the 'thul beings (I have found that they are fun to disagree with! P ). I have a feeling that I will come to regret it though, and will later have to eat my words!

While all have the ability to create change, I don't believe that Wintrow was ever a catalyst as a replacement for Fitz. To make my thoughts clearer, possibly what I should have said earlier is that all beings have the ability to 'create change' and therefore 'are capable of performing roles like a Catalyst to a certain degree'.

Fitz, despite being stuck in his hut during the LST years, was still the Catalyst. Just as he was still the Catalyst at the end of the TM series, and just as he remained the Catalyst during the RWC. His role doesn't stop just because he is not always directly involved in, or at the forefront of, the storyline. I'm suddenly realising that I've said all of this somewhere before! Ouch Amber/Fool is the White Prophet and Fitz is the Catalyst...and they hold these roles within the entire world, not in just one or two regions. Their role and purpose is to save the world.

Without Fitz, who is to say what would have become of Amber when she fell upon Paragon's deck in Lavoy's presence? He was not there in person, certainly, but by virtue of his Skill-link, he still performed. Even by his absence, he created change. If he had not been stuck in some hut somewhere, and had returned, say, to Molly, then Molly and Burrich would never have had as many children...one of them being Swift who himself held a pivotal role in the later undoing of the Pale Woman. These are just some examples though.

Pilkrop had stuck it out in Aslevjal and awaited the arrival of the WP and the Catalyst (Fool and Fitz), and this was despite the fact that he himself had previously been a White Prophet. The Pale Woman realised, too late, that only Fitz could truly fulfill the role of Catalyst after Kebal Rawbread's failure, and even Fool acknowledged that he should have known that only Fitz could wrought such a change as unbelievable as a resurrection from the dead. Fitz is not only the Catalyst, he is Changer.

This doesn't lessen Wintrow's contribution, of course, nor any other contributions made by every character who created change or performed a catalyst-like role (for good or ill). Like Fitz though, they are also capable of being manipulated into action either by their own needs/desires etc, or the helpful pulling of the WP's strings. Amber did not only seek to use Wintrow to fulfill her role and the needs of the world...she sought to unite the slaves, return Paragon to the sea and so many other things besides. In the end, she achieved many of these things without input from Wintrow at all.

What is of particular interest to me is that Fitz himself had never truly changed. He was ever a true 'Catalyst' in this regard. He pretty much ended as he began, despite the significant change he created along the way (and despite the fact that many Hobb fans didn't like this aspect of him!). I'm not sure the same could be said of Wintrow, or many of the others who created huge change eg Selden, Malta, Patience (who went from appearing to be odd to being seen as 'queenly') etc...but all that's just an added thought.

If Wintrow were meant to be Amber's Catalyst, surely their lives would have collided when they were 'meant' to? Much like how Fool shut his eyes and the pointer fingers of his right and left hands met in the middle in front of his face when Fitz first asked how Fool had found him at the beginning of TM (at least, I think that's what he did!)? Not to mention that Amber would never have been aboard Paragon to save him and the crew when Paragon was burning, and would never have been aboard the Paragon to receive the Rooster Crown when Igrot's hoard was refound. Without this, Fitz could never have returned Fool to the world...

Just my thoughts though, and I'll be back to share more when I can. Smiling

Thought of this thread during the first couple of pages after recommencing my AQ re-read. Kettle shares the following with Fitz about what Cabal the White had to say, above a scroll passage he'd written concerning his own Catalyst, DarAles:

Quote:...it is in every one of us to be a catalyst in our own time.

Such a wonderfully written post, Farseer. I just wanted to interject that I completely agree with everything you've said, haha. Big Grin

I love how you've so eloquently stated that Fitz remaining alone in his hut for 15 years is basically his way of still being the Catalyst during the time of LST. Fool then has the freedom to become involved in the part of the world that needs him next.

As you've already stated:
  • The slaves needed to band together somehow & become an integral part in assisting the Old Traders/Three-Ships against the New Traders trying to over-run Bingtown. Amber did this.
  • Paragon needed to be involved in the fall-of-Kennit which, in turn, allows Jamallia, the Pirate Isles, Bingtown and the Rain Wilds to all come together as allies, thus changing the world dramatically. Amber was part of getting the Paragon out & keeping him sane through times.
  • Amber needed to retrieve the Rooster Crown which later saves her life via Fitz.
And something you didn't mention:
  • I think Fitz not being around somehow allows the thought of and proper negotiations with the Outislanders, joining them with the Six Duchies (which, of course, leads the whole world to Aslevjal & a male dragon for Tintaglia).

SO. With Fitz as the Catalyst, I'd say any other one is a minor catalyst. And during LST not only are Wintrow, Kennit, Vivacia, Paragon, Althea, Brashen, Serilla, Jani, Reyn, Malta, the Satrap, and the Teniras minor catalysts, Amber herself was a minor catalyst. Smiling

Hell, that being said - there are several from all trilogies! Chivalry, in his way, was a minor catalyst, just as Verity, Rurisk, Kettriken, Chade, Burrich, Molly, Kettle & Regal are before LST.

None of this is meant to cheapen Fitz' existence at all. You only need think of all the feats Fitz goes through to realize none of the other characters could have done them on their own as he does. Thankful

... and now I feel like this entire post was just a repeat of what Farseer already said. Blushing
Indeed. Nice way of looking at it. One can change much by doing nothing.

And here was I, thinking that I was disagreeing and adding debate fodder but you beings decided to agree instead! Big Grin
We probably think too similarly on this.

(Jul-20-2011, 03:36 AM (UTC))jasonresno Wrote: [ -> ]Did you buy into how they acted towards eachother? Did Kennit REALLY care for Wintrow?

Sorry if I'm not meant to be dredging up old topics, but for me, the Kennit-Wintrow relationship is of the most interesting aspects of Liveships so I just couldn't resist throwing in my 2p worth. I'm not sure how many spoilers there will be in the following post, so I'm going to put it all in a spoiler warning anyway - apologies if it's not badly spoilerish.


My word, this post is long. Toohot
This should make sense, but probably doesn't - it's one of those cases where I knew what I wanted to say in my head, and then it came out all bleh on the computer. Sorry guys. Blushing


I reckon you've just about hit the nail on the head londonlassie. Kennit's a vulnerable soul beneath all the swagger and bravado. The Wintrow/Kennit story line is probably my favourite too...though I didn't go 'silly' for Kennit like I did for Fitz WubWink
These beings did not go crazy for either of them.
(Jul-02-2012, 10:34 PM (UTC))fool-ish Wrote: [ -> ]I reckon you've just about hit the nail on the head londonlassie. Kennit's a vulnerable soul beneath all the swagger and bravado. The Wintrow/Kennit story line is probably my favourite too...though I didn't go 'silly' for Kennit like I did for Fitz WubWink

I'm glad it made sense, fool-ish, I frequently feel like I just ramble and go totally off-topic when it comes to trying to work Kennit out Smiling
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