Full Version: The ending doesn't make sense? Spoilers Farseer & Tawny Man
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(Mar-18-2010, 08:08 AM (UTC))kollkolen Wrote: [ -> ]He had come too far from the boy who loved her, that sixteen years apart had changed him in many ways and it didn't seem possible that they could come back from that.

No, sorry, I think that's the entire point. He didn't carry on at all. When he gave his pain to Girl-On-a-Dragon, he stopped developing. I think that what we see at the end of Fool's Fate is Fitz at seventeen, with the body and life-experience of a forty year-old.
Fitz was half-forged after that, don't forget. Isn't it brilliantly done that after this event, he never once mentions going back to Molly anymore? I hadn't even noticed until I read the Fool's trilogy.

Going off the theory that you can't appreciate the highlights of your life if you haven't got the darkness to measure it against.

In my opinion; the Fool is the love that twines in and out of Fitz' life, according to Gina the hedge-witch. I found myself mentally shouting at Fitz that he could be so thick-skulled not to grasp that! Smiling
(Mar-20-2010, 11:40 AM (UTC))Chrischa Wrote: [ -> ]No, sorry, I think that's the entire point. He didn't carry on at all. When he gave his pain to Girl-On-a-Dragon, he stopped developing.

Exactly! And when he got his memories back he was still that youngling deeply in love with Molly. So of course he went back to her! The only thing we wonder is how come Molly took him back... She was the one who had changed, not Fitz - in this sense at least.
I quite agree with apples, I've just finished the series as well, and am feeling very similar.

As to a few of the things raised in replies.

Fitz had decided not to return to molly, before he gave his memories to girl-on-a-dragon. Kettle explained to Fitz, quite correctly, that their love was a child's love, and not perfect, that he was focusing on only the positive aspects, and completely avoiding the fact that they constantly fought etc. He agreed to this and admitted to himself that she was right. This happened before molly and burrich got together.

More so, she was right. The love between molly and fitz made sense when it started. But the fact that they ended up together, that fitz never found meaning with any other woman.. just seems ridiculous to me.

Also, when did women start jumping from husband to husband like this? the way that aspect was handled felt incredibly untrue. Fitz dies, molly and burrich get married, have 6 children? spend 15 years together.. then burrich dies, and molly hops back to fitz?

And pretending Fitz was practically forged seems over zealous. In the beginning of the tawny man triliogy fitz seems to be quite happy in his life of seclusion. And he has earned it. There's no eluding to this being because he was forged, but instead simply because he spent his formidable years a tool for the crown, and is tired of it. Then when it's convenient it's because he was almost forged, his entire life in that cabin was pointless, and the only reason any of it happened was because of girl on a dragon.

Verity didn't seem forged.. and he'd put almost all of himself into his dragon, fitz threw but a small fraction of things into girl on a dragon. The fool himself spent more time carving her, and we aren't told his every action since then has been because of what he put into girl on a dragon.

Also, someone mentioned that for the fool to stay in fitzes life, that this "could" negatively effect the future. But isn't that true of anyone? The fool has no visions any longer, he is in every respect, aside from his longevity very human now. There is no "supernatural" aspect to him. So how does the fool affect fitzs life negatively compared to kettricken? or chade.. or any of the characters surrounding the catalyst. The fools simply another person now.. So the fool could tell him something, and that something could turn out to be bad advice, could affect the future in negative ways.. Molly could do this.. or anyone else that has lips and says anything to fitz.

Fitz has almost died, been brought back from death, countless times. Could you not also say he is in danger of affecting things negatively from simply existing as well?

My main problem with this, is that the ending to the farseer trilogy, felt right. But because the series continued, suddenly all of that sound logic that was applied for that series, comes unraveled and is rendered incorrect, because the story continued, and it's happier for fitz to have this ending instead. By that same logic does another trilogy come along, and the way this series ended become irrelevant as well?

We are told things in these books, led to believe things, and then when continuity gets in the way those things are shoved aside. By logic that fitz himself once said "you could drive a herd of cattle through"

As to fitz extending his own life. Kettle was 200, she did not look 200, she looked less than half that age. So I do not believe you spend your added days in a broken body, with simply a younger "spirit" You extend your life, but eventually time will catch up with you, no matter how talented you are. Also, Kettle had not been able to skill herself younger for a very long time, she had been cut off from the magic. So there is no telling how exactly she would have looked. And saying it's wrong seems foolish. If Kettle had not extended her life.. verity would never have finished his dragon, fitz would have been captured by burl.. etc.

The reason that fitz felt that he could overuse his reserves, was because fitz was brought back from the edge of death. By people not fully trained in the skill. Extending your life, slowly, would not have the same effect it had on him then, if it was done periodically.

So yes, all things must die, and death gives meaning to life. But how exactly is that tied to a human lifespan? so your life is rendered meaningless if you live to be 150 instead of 100? or 200 instead of 80?
Yeah I must admit that as soon as it was mentioned (by Nettle?) that Burrich was going around 'as if he was saying goodbye' or words to that effect I started thinking 'oh oh what's all this'.
And then when Burrich turned up on the ice island I was NO WAY! If Burrich is going to be removed from the picture so that Fitz can marry Molly I will just ........ !!!!!!
So for about the last third of Fool's Fate I was telling myself, nah there's no way that can happen, there must be a twist of some sort (also crying my eyes out!)
I found it very interesting to read this post Robin Hobb made on her website about it -

I must admit I don't really understand it, but maybe if there was a further book (which she indicates is what she intended) it would be explained. Apparently now chances aren't good that there will be such a book/s ....

It did certainly feel like things became a bit surreal for me after Fitz got stuck in the skill pillar for all that time. (4 weeks?)
So whether something weird is going on like he's still stuck in the skill pillar, I do not know.
(Apr-05-2010, 04:37 AM (UTC))Sai Jackal Wrote: [ -> ]Verity didn't seem forged.. and he'd put almost all of himself into his dragon, Fitz threw but a small fraction of things into girl on a dragon.
Verity certainly seemed part-forged to me. His emotional responses are completely flat at this point. He is still recognisably Verity, presumably because he is controlling the transfer of life force, rather than having it imposed on him.
(Apr-06-2010, 05:08 PM (UTC))Nuytsia Wrote: [ -> ]It did certainly feel like things became a bit surreal for me after Fitz got stuck in the skill pillar for all that time. (4 weeks?)
So whether something weird is going on like he's still stuck in the skill pillar, I do not know.

The final part of Fool's Fate never quite worked for me too. Fitz and Molly getting together again did not feel right to me, the idea behind the ending of Assassin's Quest being that he had to give up Molly, that no matter how much he loved her, it wasn't enough. he could not hold on to her. FF seemed to against this.

What I did kinda like was how the final scenes seemed to be like a zooming-out: we witness events taking place over the course of a few years fairly rapidly. Like we're slowly being pulled out of Fitz's life.

(And I do believe that the love that weaves itself into and out of Fitz's life was in fact the Fool.)
to what you're saying Maulkin, I'll agree that Verity was missing a lot of himself. But Verity knew what he had to do, and held on to that, right until his final moments. Verity was still flickering in and out of being himself, and in comparison he had dumped almost everything into the dragon at that point. But he was still Verity. He still loved Kettricken, but it was again, "flickering" everything he was at that point, was in and out, up and down, he's there he's not, it's all about the dragon it isn't all about the dragon. But with Fitz supposedly this one thing just disappeared and he never remembered it.

I always remember when Verity would tell Fitz that he made him feel like himself again. That Fitzs constant badgering awoke something in Verity that Verity thought long dead. But you cannot reawaken a Forged one with memories.

My complaint in terms of the fitz being somewhat forged, is that Fitz never acted anything like that. He still tried to love, he pursued Jenna, and even wanted a family. Jennas charm having the unmanning effect on him and such. He still sat and laughed and loved life with the Fool, he acted exactly like Fitz from Farseer trilogy did, aside from the fact that he was now older, and more reserved. But that was natural.

Then it turns out, apparently his entire life has been altered, he hasn't been fully experiencing things, he hasn't been "whole" since that moment when he dumped some feeling into Girl on a dragon. And the extreme of that is what sets me off. I honestly felt like Fitz has been insulted when the fool suggested he hadn't been "whole" It felt like a seriously lacking excuse for why he and Molly never ended all happily ever after. When Robin herself has said based on Farseer she never planned for them to end up together. So what I'm saying, is I see the seams, and I despise it when I see the seams in a story. She manufactured an excuse for him, and she can do that, Fitz is hers, but it's simply lacking. (in my opinion)

Nuytsia, I'd never read that interview. And it definitely clears some stuff up for me. I'm actually not someone who's suggesting that Fitz needs to change his sexuality and run off with the fool. I'm not sure where I stand on him and the fool being romantic. Robins right when she says it would be very out of character for Fitz to do such a thing. But at the same time, his feelings for the fool do transcend simple friendship, or love the way one man loves another, as Fitz said once himself.

But whatever there is between the Fool and Fitz, that has nothing to do with my disappointment in Fitz and Molly. In my opinion, Fitz could never replace Burrich, but Burrich could replace Fitz. That's my problem with the happily ever after. Burrich.. 15 years she spent with him, this does not simply get shoved aside for someone you loved when you were a kid. And the rubbish about always holding a special spot in your heart for your first love. I'll to some degree agree with that. But there's a difference between fondly remembering something, or someone, and marrying them after your husband dies.

I agree that the Fool was the love coming in and out of Fitz life as well. And that, compared to the Molly ending, I would have preferred him and the fool had something instead of nothing. This also bugged me. The fool talking about Fitz never having cubs of his own.. Are we now saying that Fitz was not Burrichs cub? because Burrich was not Fitzs biological father? Or that Hap was not Fitz cub? I hardly think Fitz need have more children with molly, for him to really have "Cubs"

After reading that I certainly feel bad though. I've never hate mailed her, or mailed her at all. But the idea that this has negatively impacted her ever returning to the series, is quite disheartening. As long as she kills molly.. I'd totally want more farseer books, no matter how I feel about certain decisions, the only reason I personally criticize them so heavily is because of how much I enjoyed them..
(Apr-07-2010, 04:21 PM (UTC))Sai Jackal Wrote: [ -> ]no matter how I feel about certain decisions, the only reason I personally criticize them so heavily is because of how much I enjoyed them..

I know what you mean! If her writing wasn't so good we wouldn't care less how the book ended!
I wish Robin had taken that message from the comments she must have received..... but I guess people can be unbelievably insensitive so goodness knows what her emails said.
I wish she would go ahead and write whatever it was she had in mind before she got any feedback. Like you, I also don't know what I imagine happening between fitz and the fool, but i feel sure there must be something more in mind than where it ended up at the end of FF.
It was weird to read that some people complained about the ending to the Assassin's trilogy - I thought that ending was just fine.
I think in an ideal world authors wouldn't listen to any public feedback until they are finished with that set of characters for good! I can't imagine how someone like George RR Martin can write in peace with so much speculation going on about every little detail of his books and what will happen next. I thought, he must just not read it, but he must know about it (attending Cons and stuff at least, and comments on his blog, just for starters)
I'd never read that interview either, I'm very disappointed in people that they would feel it necessary to write RH with such hate mail. Ultimately writers create their stories for nobody but themselves, and that we happen to like reading them doesn't give us the right to interfere in their creative process nor their vision of what the story should be.
It's very sad that such people took the wind out of her sails. Especially because I think that RH is a writer whom you can trust to know what she's doing... if you know what I mean; there are so many writers out there who seem to fumble along, not knowing where they are going and leaving huge holes (yes, yes, the drive-cattle-through kind Smiling ) in their plots for convenience's sake. I feel Robin Hobb is a true master of her trade who knows exactly where she's going with things, and that everything that is in her story is relevant and well thought through.
I'd like to make this a separate post to reply to some of the excellent points that have been brought up here. To be honest, I'm very much of the kind that doesn't question these things. The way things go in a book or a series or a film, to me, is just the way things are and it's not until I visit forums such as this that it occurs to me that these things are created by - often fallible - people. Weird, I know. Smiling

Anyway, one thing I wanted to throw into the debate is the idea that it may not matter how long a person is chopping away at a stone dragon, what matters more, I think, is what they choose to put in there. Fitz gives away the very foundations of his being to Girl-On-A-Dragon. I'll just sum them up;
- the memory of his mother and his feelings of her and his abandonment
- his longing for Molly and the memory of their days together
- his torture and death in Regal's dungeon
- his abandonment by his father
- his fear of Galen and the memory of how he was humiliated by him
- his anger towards Burrich for taking Molly away

And on top of that; his youthful anger and frustration for being excluded from the dragon-carving and for being used by the Farseers in general were taken earlier by Verity, as an example of what a dragon takes.

Compared to that, as far as we know, the Fool gives lighter memories; small things that caused him pain or joy. Of course, the book only describes a fraction of what the Fool gives away, and on top of that we never switch to the Fool's point of view to see what damage he took.

But going back to Fitz, effectively that would mean that he lost his drive for many things, and I think that we should look at how that would affect his later actions, compared to how they affected him before. For example, his drive to go to Molly and afterwards his acceptance that Burrich is the better man for her. Or his anger at his abandonment by the people who should have loved him above all else, would that not cause him to become a reclusive who doesn't care that his friends never come to find him? Take away his anger for being used by the Farseers and Fitz would still go through the motions of finding his own life, because he remembers that's what he always said he would do, but would he actually make anything of that life?

As for Verity, I think that when he was whole he was a man of very deep passion and love. The process of carving a dragon takes away the past feelings. It does not take away his capability for feeling. It also doesn't take away the memory in itself, but rather the feelings that accompanied it, much, I think, like a photograph of a nice day can be compared to the day itself. Thus Verity would remember Kettricken and he would remember that he used to have feelings of deep love and affection for her, but the love and affection itself would be gone. I think that when he saw her, he knew he owned it to her to pretend that that love was still there because he knew that if he was still whole, it would still be there. Also, when he touched her, new feelings of love would occur. Hence him saying to Fitz that Fitz' accusations make him feel guilty all over again.

So I think that Verity is very much only a shell of his former self when they find him in the quarry, but because he is aware of the emptiness inside him he uses his memories to pretend to the others that he is still the same man. Because he doesn't want to hurt them, in particular not his wife.

Also, I think that because he is willingly giving his being to a stone dragon, the almost-forged man that he is, is very different from a real Forged one. Much like lovemaking is different from rape. Compare how both acts affect people and I think you see the difference between people who carve a stone dragon and people who are Forged. Same process, extremely different methods.

One more thing I wanted to address is Molly accepting Fitz after her marriage to Burrich. In my opinion we are seeing two different kinds of love here. The love between Fitz and Molly when they are young, is a passionate love based more on physical attraction then on friendship. The love between Molly and Burrich is a more mature love, based on a friendship which develops naturally between people who go through a difficult time together, the need for protection and safety, and also convenience. Then again between Fitz and Molly at the end of the books it would be a more mature version of their earlier attraction.

I don't think that Molly takes anything away from her love for Burrich when she returns to Fitz after about two or three years of mourning him. Burrich would have been like a stable anchor for her in the years they were together, a man she might not have fallen in love with as such, but nonetheless someone whose stability, friendship, devotion and morality create a safe and comfortable home around her which allows her a very good life. All these feelings accumulate into love as well, albeit a very different one from a love that is based on youthful passion.
Remember King Shrewd and his two wives? I think Robin Hobb created for us a perfect example of Molly's two loves. Queen Constance was chosen for Shrewd and it was not until her death that he realized how much he had come to love her. Queen Desire he married out of love, but it quickly turned into something else entirely. Likewise, I don't think that Molly and Fitz would have been happy together had Fitz run away with Molly when she asked him to, when she realized she was pregnant with Nettle. But later on when they are both adults and more mature, they would both bring that steadiness into the relationship that makes it work.
I also don't think that Molly herself would have returned to Fitz after Burrich's death, if it hadn't been for Fitz constantly buzzing around her like a bee that doesn't want to go away. But if you're faced with the options of growing old on your own, with young children still to raise and keeping an estate on your own (which you have never done before), or to spend your old age with your childhood's love who also happens to be a good father and a capable man, the choice is easily made. Even if you still love and mourn your dead husband and father of your children.

I look forward to reading other people's thoughts on this. This debate has made me consider a lot of the things about the books that earlier on I had taken for granted, and it has deepened my respect for Robin Hobb as a writer.
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