The Dragon Keeper "Controversial?" Hobb and sexuality. *Major Spoilers up to RWC!

[Farseer]

I've expressed this opinion before elsewhere and the resulting discussion wasn't pretty but I do believe it makes sense that the 6D and Bingtown cultures are (latently?) homophobic, even when there doesn't seem to be a set of religious rules to cause it.

Though there is no mention of religion in the following passages, I thought it interesting that Dutiful chose to keep his virginity even in the face of Elliana's advances because, "It is the custom of my land, though not all follow it. To wait until we are wed."

And also, from a princely point of view, "My body and my seed belong to the Six Duchies. I am not free to share it where I would choose, but only with my wife. That is our custom."

In this, though there may not be a set of 'religious laws' outside priestly living (at least that we know of, even though most seemingly adhere to the concept of El and Eda or Sa to varying degrees?), there are obviously 'customs', some of which may include the dismissal of homosexuality? There would have to be, wouldn't there, otherwise it would be more prolifically out in the open? Something has to have set the standard for their society?

It's obvious Leftrin has been more exposed to homosexuals (no doubt due to his association with Carson) than, say, Fitz...we only have to look at their reactions. While Leftrin would probably shrug or roll his eyes, Fitz would fall over himself to get away ! In this, as it is in all things, it's probably accurate to say that we should be wary about measuring the rest of the realm's personal or social standards through Fitz.

As for dragons, I agree, they definitely seem to have very few sexual hang-ups and, interestingly, this makes their distain of rape all the more powerful....that's their line in the sand.

[Nuytsia]

Interesting thoughts!

And also, from a princely point of view, "My body and my seed belong to the Six Duchies. I am not free to share it where I would choose, but only with my wife. That is our custom."

Good to see him living up to his name .....ahem.. not like some people we could name who preceeded him......

I guess this sort of sentiment makes sense for any responsible monarch (no stray illegitimate kids stirring up trouble), and I guess with Kettrinken being his sole parent (and hence where he'd get a lot of his ideas from) we could probably assume this would be the custom of the mountain kingdom too.

In this, though there may not be a set of 'religious laws' outside priestly living (at least that we know of, even though most seemingly adhere to the concept of El and Eda or Sa to varying degrees?), there are obviously 'customs', some of which may include the dismissal of homosexuality? There would have to be, wouldn't there, otherwise it would be more prolifically out in the open? Something has to have set the standard for their society?

Yeah, if not religious edict, it's got to come from somewhere!
I guess it may stem from the focus on procreation for the cursed shores area, as Mervi mentioned. I guess that would fit with the (apparent) fact that things are more liberal in places like Jamailla (and further south?).
But no real need for six duchies to be worried unduly about procreation. Then again, as Farseer pointed out we only have Fitz's view of 6D so we aren't sure what the general consensus is there.
I think surely we could assume there is SOME tendency to at least ridicule homosexuality in 6D - unless Fitz is TOTALLY paranoid! I mean his embarrassment about people (apparently) thinking there was something between him and Lord G must have come from somewhere.

[Farseer]

I think surely we could assume there is SOME tendency to at least ridicule homosexuality in 6D - unless Fitz is TOTALLY paranoid! I mean his embarrassment about people (apparently) thinking there was something between him and Lord G must have come from somewhere.

Oh, definitely! Dutiful's questioning Fitz on the matter of his and Lord Golden's relationship, up in Verity's Tower Room, was a telling moment (especially as it seemed to reflect the murmurings of the entire keep and beyond), not to mention Civil's on-going and very apparent disgust !

That homosexuality does exist within the Six Duchies is clearly highlighted, I think it was in the Bresinga's own home, when one of the lords who was present made Fitz very aware of his desires...from Fitz's commentary it's plain that not only was Fitz made very uncomfortable by this but the actions of the lord were certainly homosexual in nature, and not merely paranoia on Fitz's part.

Just on procreation...I loved Fitz's reaction to the charm of Jinna's that would prevent any reproduction from taking place during their love-making. In this, he seemed very animal-like/dragon-like in that he unconciously approached all sexual activity as a means for procreation rather than recreation, and this procreation was very important to him (and he didn't seem to particularly care who he 'procreated' with...Jinna, Molly, Starling, even the Pale Woman had him thinking for a time and this was via a Skill suggestion based solely on her knowledge of his strong need to procreate).

[maulkin]

Just on procreation...I loved Fitz's reaction to the charm of Jinna's that would prevent any reproduction from taking place during their love-making. In this, he seemed very animal-like/dragon-like in that he unconciously approached all sexual activity as a means for procreation rather than recreation, and this procreation was very important to him (and he didn't seem to particularly care who he 'procreated' with...Jinna, Molly, Starling, even the Pale Woman had him thinking for a time and this was via a Skill suggestion based solely on her knowledge of his strong need to procreate).

This got me thinking about sexuality in wolves and whether it is entirely procreative. Wolves are characterised by sexual suppression; only the highest ranking male and female in any pack are allowed to breed. Attempts by lower-ranking males to mate with the alpha female are aggressively interrupted by the alpha male and males appear to show no sexual interest towards lower ranking females. However, lower-ranking male wolves do engage in homosexual activity when the alpha female is in heat. The alpha pair also mate far more frequently than is required merely for procreation.

So, it seems that wolves practice birth control, recreational sex and homosexuality. What does this say about Fitz? Perhaps that his obsession with breeding and aversion to homosexuality are human rather than animal traits.

[Farseer]

You are so right, maulkin! Now you've got me really thinking...!

---

In Fitz's case, could it be said that he disregards, or is immune to, 'pack behaviour' in that he considers himself a lone wolf looking to mark his own territory, find his mate and create his own pack? Once within the pack arrangement * Farseer/Tawny Man Spoilers *

Spoiler

as he possibly is after the end of FF?), it is only then that he would fully exhibit pack behaviours eg recreational sex, have concerns with birth control etc? I'm not sure!

In saying all of that, I can see where someone could argue that his relationship with Starling could be termed 'recreational' and not 'procreative' in that he could never have truly expected a child to come from their joining due to her being supposedly barren...hmmm...he still yearned for it to be so though?

I know there are spoilers in my early posts, and the posts of others, but just taking the careful road from here on, until we can maybe change the name of this thread to include these other books, and have a general discussion on sexuality etc...

[Nuytsia]

Farseer thanks for those reminders re Tawny Man trilogy and references to homosexuality.

tawny man

Spoiler

Yes Civil was hilarious actually. I love when he basically goes A-HA! when he finds Fitz, Fool (and Dutiful?) in the tent talking (*gasp*). It's not funny really, but I found it so silly as to be funny. Then again, poor Civil, I think he has good reason to hate the Fool (after his chatting up ummmm what was her name?) and maybe it's not homophobia at the core of it (but the point still stands, it cannot be seen as something generally seen as positive in their society for him to act that way).

That thing with Fitz freaking out at Jinna's charm annoyed me a bit, or I guess I just couldn't really fathom it. I mean yes, Starling couldn't have children so why was he ok to have sex with her. And then what will happen in a few more years when Molly is beyond childbearing age? Will he go oh what's the point, it's all so futile!!!! I don't think so. Maybe there's something I just don't get.
I fear it was just a foreshadowing toward his ending up marrying Molly (like one reason being to have another kid??? bit silly when he already has 3)

All the wolf stuff is intriguing!! We have such wide ranging fields of expertise on this board!

tiny tawny man

Spoiler

One possible interpretation In relation to Jinna's contraceptive charm, does his reaction mean he has changed and he now sees himself as the Alpha male wolf? (so now is more interested in sex for procreation rather than recreation?)
Tenuous I guess, seeing he is not really in a pack, and Jinna isn't really the alpha female of a pack.....

[Farseer]

Spoiler

One possible interpretation In relation to Jinna's contraceptive charm, does his reaction mean he has changed and he now sees himself as the Alpha male wolf? (so now is more interested in sex for procreation rather than recreation?)
Tenuous I guess, seeing he is not really in a pack, and Jinna isn't really the alpha female of a pack.....

I don't know if I'm getting myself confused or am completely contradicting myself or not BUT, I'd have thought a wolf in a lone wolf role (searching for his own territory and looking to create his own pack)would always sort of consider himself as the Alpha male unless, of course, he comes across a pack's territory or wishes to join an actual pack...it is only then that he would have to either a) fight for the position of Alpha male of that pack or b) cede leadership to the existing Alpha male if he wished to remain in the pack?

* Tawny Man spoiler *

Spoiler

In this, Fitz would always see himself in the role of Alpha male, with any female he encounters a potential Alpha female eg Jinna, Molly etc whilst at the same time playing out the role of a lone wolf?

I can see the sense of that but that may not at all be how it actually works with wolves...maulkin?!

ps I agree, Nuytsia, we have a clever bunch of people in this forum !

[maulkin]

OK, I am going out on a limb here (I am certainly no expert on wolf psychology!) but it seems to me that a lone wolf would not consider itself to be a pack leader. Lone wolves typically do not hold territories but skulk on the margins of territories held by wolf packs. If a lone wolf finds a mate and manages to establish a new territory then it could become an alpha wolf but, until then, it is merely an outcast.

Fitz never accepts the role of "pack leader", even when it is available. He consistently relinquishes his mates (and even his offspring) to others and turns down positions of leadership when they are offered. In fact, this seems to be one of Fitz's key traits; he never defends his own position as a potential husband, father or king. Fitz's position flips between that of a beta wolf and a lone wolf but he is never an alpha.

[Farseer]

YES, I can see all that!!! THANKS maulkin (you may not be an 'expert' but your intelligent insights are humbling all the same - wow!!)!!

[Nuytsia]

I can see that fitting. Hmmm another thought - didn't Nighteyes leave the pack he was running with partly because he couldn't become pack leader/alpha wolf? I may be recalling incorrectly but I thought in the end he challenged the leader but failed to defeat him? And there was something about him wanting to actually be leader and mate with the lead female?

Or I may have dreamed all this!!!! I don't have those books to check - poot......

Well if it IS the case then we have a contrast between Fitz rejecting opportunities to be pack leader and on the other hand Nighteyes trying for pack leader but failing.