Which RotE character is your favourite? (spoilers all RotE books)

[Nuytsia]

Great discussions here! Very philosophical too!

I guess there are Assasins and Liveship spoilers.....

Spoiler

Interesting though that you thought Fitz got the short straw Farseer when we left him in his cabin with Nighteyes. I thought that was kind of cosy and a nice quiet life as a reward for all the crap he'd been though. I'd rather that than be king of the 6 duchies! Although king of the pirate isles does sound rather cool ...!!!!!
I was actually more miffed at Wintrow not going back to the priesthood (as I think someone else hinted at somewhere). I think that's because I'm more excited by the mystical aspects rather than the mundane. It's probably why I thought oh geeeees Fitz marries Molly ho hum! King of the Pirate Isles, well not so ho hum, but 'Wintrow gets together with Etta and they raise a child' ok pretty ho hum compared to 'what the heck is going on with these priests of Sa and what skills do they have (hehe pun intended).' Can they do other cool magical things that the Skilled in the 6D can't?

Then again, it's good not to have TOO much of that going on , or the mystical becomes mundane. It is definitely good to leave a lot unknown....

[Chrischa]

I too was a bit miffed to not see Wintrow return to his monastery, but I imagine that he would become a bit of a spiritual leader to the pirate islands. Not that I'm for organized religion but I think the pirate isles could use some thoughtfulness and some reflection nonetheless. And on top of that, imo it's another sign of Robin Hobbs' strength; so many authors twist their plots into all sorts of ridiculous bends to make the characters end up back where they started. Hobb doesn't do that, they always end up different, but also in a way better, after the story. That takes courage! Only the ones that are willing to adapt end up happy, look at Bingtown!

Another interesting thought; given the old belief in the Six Duchies that a royal child's name steers his character, do you think that Fitz was guided by the fact that he is called "son of Chivalry"? Do his actions in any way indicate him being true to that name?

[Farseer]

Only the ones that are willing to adapt end up happy, look at Bingtown!

Another interesting thought; given the old belief in the Six Duchies that a royal child's name steers his character, do you think that Fitz was guided by the fact that he is called "son of Chivalry"? Do his actions in any way indicate him being true to that name?

I loved your comment re Bingtown, Chrischa!

As for Fitz being true to his name, well, as he's one of my favourite characters, I can't be expected to respond without bias! Let's see though...what is considered under the umbrella of chivalry?

* Courage - I doubt anyone could truly question his courage, particularly in battle or in undertaking his various assassin assignments.

* Loyalty - While he wished he wasn't at times, I'd say he was loyal to a fault (not to mention his own detriment!), to animals/his wit-partners, family, king, kingdom, loves.

* Honour - I believe he displayed honour (well, as much as a killer can display honour but, I guess, it could be said that he did it all for the right reasons?!).

* Consideration, especially for women - Hmm, I know plenty of you will disagree, going on previous posts about Fitz but I thought he showed a great deal of thought and consideration for others and he was certainly trained to consider situations etc from every possible angle (sometimes he even thought WAY too much on things!).

While it could be said that he didn't really show consideration to the women he partnered, I can't see it myself. Just being a man doesn't make him solely responsible for something happening in a relationship that has been entered into by two willing participants. I'd like to think that, as a woman, I'm clever enough to judge a situation for myself which, ultimately, Molly (for example) did. I didn't like her but good on her that she could step back and make a tough decision like she did, and follow through with it. The fact that Fitz didn't make this leap before she did, and therefore stopped what was happening, doesn't mean he was inconsiderate of her, I don't think.

If these are the aspects of chivalrous behaviour then, yes, I'd agree that Fitz lived up to his name .

[Nuytsia]

Chrischa I like your idea that Wintrow might bring some of his 'spirituality' (or at least a more humane outlook) to the pirate isles! But I 'wanted' him to learn more himself. (not that I'm not fine with how it DID turn out - as you say it's a plus that characters change). I would be very interested if any future books did a bit more on the priesthood that Wintrow left (with other characters) so we could see a bit more about it.

On Fitz's name, some interesting points Farseer. I think above all he did bend over backwards to do what (he thought was) 'the right thing' at all times, so in one sense of the world he fit the name (Fitz)Chivalry very well.
Personally I thought Chivalry himself was pretty selfish. The realm needed him and he went off with his lady love to have a nice quiet life. Ooooh is this some parallel to Fitz in his cabin - never thought about that before.
I was going to say Fitz had a pretty good excuse to do his own thing after all he had already given for the kingdom, but then to be honest we really don't know a huge amount about Chivalry himself so I shouldn't be too harsh on him!

[Farseer]

I agree, Nuytsia! Chivarly is just such an unknown quantity isn't he?! On face value, I also believe he was very selfish for having acted as he did (even more so knowing how things ended up between Fitz and Patience...oh, how easy it all could have been if ONLY Chivalry had hung around!!).

Still, since he was perfect to a fault, I can't help but wonder if he did have other, loftier motives for his absence (besides those already brought to light), not to mention reasons for his actions with the woman who mothered Fitz (other than love or infatuation or whatever). After all, he loved Patience so much that he was prepared to stick by her come what may and even supposedly abdicated the throne so as to not bring her shame with the appearance of his bastard son (all this despite her coming from the Six Duchies as opposed to a more politically- advantageous place such as, say, Chalced; her perceived flightiness and difference in personality to him; being barren and unable to produce and heir for his throne etc).

If he were capable of love like that, why was it not this kind of love that he chose to direct at Fitz's mother, particularly as it was obviously against his character to bed a woman in the way it appears that he did (Verity was even shocked to learn that Chivalry had done such a thing).

Hmm...I have more to add re Wintrow, as his faith etc is so interesting, but I need to think on that some!

[Chrischa]

Some very interesting points! There certainly is a similarity between Fitz' actions and Chivalry. I hadn't even considered that angle yet, I was more thinking about how his name might tie him to never be more then a "son". As in; never seeking to be more then his father is, in this particular case never having ambitions for the throne. Son-Of-Chivalry might also bind him to never be Chivalry himself, if you know what I mean.
And yes, I know that Fitz was ready to take up stewardship when Regal fled inland during the Red Ship War, but he didn't do that as a result of years of ambitions and careful planning, but only because he knew no-one was more suitable and more likely to hand power back to Kettricken and her child.

As to the other aspect you brought up; I can think of three points in his life when Fitz was so much like Chivalry that other people even commented on it. First of all of course there's his physical appearance and the way he is built, moves and fights. Secondly he wants to marry for love rather then political advantages (Shrewd actually calls him Chivalry during this argument, doesn't he?). And thirdly he abandons his task just when the kingdom needs him the most; he doesn't want to be an assassin any more.

[redchild]

I would be very interested if any future books did a bit more on the priesthood that Wintrow left (with other characters) so we could see a bit more about it.

I am also very interested in the religion around Sa, and if they incorporate Skill into their rituals. It seems that Skill and Wit are not emphasized as powers or skills, at least consciously, in the states south of the Six Duchies. It's very odd that in the Duchies, Skill and Wit are so highly regarded that they become huge political and social issues in the kingdom, yet the southern countries seem to pay no attention to them at all.

[maulkin]

It's very odd that in the Duchies, Skill and Wit are so highly regarded that they become huge political and social issues in the kingdom, yet the southern countries seem to pay no attention to them at all.

I suppose that, since the Skill must be learned, southerners may be unaware that it exists even though some possess the capacity for it. The Wit is more of a problem since the Witted appear to use it intuitively, without the need for training. I can only conclude that the Wit is rare or absent among Southerners. Since the Wit appears to be hereditary, it is possible that the Witted never reached the South or that they were persecuted to extinction there.

[Nuytsia]

Another interesting thought; given the old belief in the Six Duchies that a royal child's name steers his character.....

Off topic - I was in the supermarket the other day and saw in the dried fruit section "Verity" prunes !

Hehehehehe!

What's next Fitz lemonade?

[Farseer]

It's very odd that in the Duchies, Skill and Wit are so highly regarded that they become huge political and social issues in the kingdom, yet the southern countries seem to pay no attention to them at all.

I suppose that, since the Skill must be learned, southerners may be unaware that it exists even though some possess the capacity for it. The Wit is more of a problem since the Witted appear to use it intuitively, without the need for training. I can only conclude that the Wit is rare or absent among Southerners. Since the Wit appears to be hereditary, it is possible that the Witted never reached the South or that they were persecuted to extinction there.

WARNING! CONTAINS HIGH LEVELS OF ELFBARK

I believe that the use of the Skill is an important aspect of being a priest of Sa, they just don't know it as "the Skill". Possibly it is the same as "the Wit", particularly as residents of the Mountain Kingdom were often Witted but even, say, Kettricken, didn't know that that's what it was termed until she moved to the Six Duchies. She even came to believe that it was from her that Duitiful inherited his Wit ability. The difference is just in a name...and this could even be extended to Sa which, I believe, we will find out is exactly the same thing as El and Eda (both beliefs do have a male and female aspect after all?) but this deity is just named differently by a different group.

This could be extended even further to include the "religion" of the White Prophet...while the priests of Sa abhor and disclaim the prophecies and teaching about the White Prophet etc, I personally believe that Fool is no less a tool for these gods than any other, and that they are all the one and the same. Time will tell (or maybe not as it's Robin Hobb we're talking about!)!

It is a little like legends and stories which are alike in different parts of the RotE but just go under a different name (not unlike, say, the story of Noah's flood...apparently every major culture in our own world eg Native American, Indigenous Australian etc has its own story of a cataclysmic flood and all that is different is the various names, causes and meanings applied to that same event).

I don't have the books to quote from but I always felt that it was the Skill which Wintrow used to create his stained-glass window while at the monastery in The Magic Ship? I also always just assumed that the priests were all being trained in the Skill but they just didn't know it as a Skill training of sorts. They were just training to be priests and making something to sell for the moanstery along the way. Also even a bit of the Wit is being used, I think, as Wintrow spoke about feeling at one with the tree that he had placed in his creation, or something to that affect?

We know that the Wit is an understanding of all things in nature, not just animals, and trees, particularly those that are ancient, show themselves via the Wit (this is mentioned in a number of places throught the Farseer/Tawny Man books but a specific time would have been when Fitz was walking on the way to the town plaza, where he and Fool first saw the Rooster Crown, and he made special mention of his awareness of the trees).

The trances that Wintrow spoke of seemed very similar to the state in which a Skill-user found themselves while communicating, and also that feeling of weariness after using it for any period of time. When Wintrow had completed his window, which showed the serpent and the dragon, he felt drained and then learned that quite a great deal of time had passed while he had been in the room...more than what was healthy for him to have been in that trance-like state for so long. I am sure there was also reference made to a black substance in the immediate area (possibly the walls or floor near the room where the priests made their creations via trances) and when Wintrow came away from there, he felt his head begin to clear? This, to me, was just memory stone though the priests themselves didn't know it.

I would suggest that this trance-like could possibly even be similar to how Elderlings created their various art forms as they were well known for their creativity eg simulacra, tapestries, magical goods etc. The lady and the dragon simulacra mentioned in 'Homecoming' was exactly as those that stood dormant in the stone garden but was, instead, in the underground ruins of Trehaug where the Elderlings obviously first made their creations. The simulacra (if you don't know the term, I am speaking of the stone dragons here), once made, would leave the Elderling cities and then find a resting place in the Stone Garden. There is more on this under the Elderling Creations thread.

I believe that all characters throughout every one of the books (either in the north or the south) is experiencing the Wit, Skill or that other, different but combined-like experience of the two (which Fitz often speaks about..."it is not the Wit or the Skill but a combination of the two), but just don't know it (or know it as a different term).

Whatever it is, all are becoming more aware and more sensitive to these abilities as time goes on eg Reyn almost communicating with Malta in a Skill-like manner when Reyn was with Tintaglia and Malta was aboard the ship, somethng which Fitz and Verity etc had been doing for years...of course, Fitz was always described as sensitive and this, to me, is obviously why he is so talented in the Skill...

Even the liveships were able to help perform Skill-healings (or even Wit-healings) and lend strength where needed. They are connected but nobody knows it yet.

So much more to add but I will pause for breath here...! Sorry if I have a gazillion typos...so much to say and no time to say it in!